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Montalk's Reincarnation Model
#1
Montalk
"It appears that the Platonists, Egyptians, Chaldeans, and all Orientals believed that souls had an ethereal, aerial, and terrestrial vestment; that the last named was put off by natural death, the second by supernatural death, and the other retained for ever." - Chevalier Ramsay

That's the model I've come to use, based on observation, reason, and tons of research:

* spirit
* astral body
* etheric body
* physical body

The spirit is eternal.

The astral body is the last to be given up after death, and the first to be formed around the spirit upon the decision to reincarnate. It's the personality-costume worn by spirit. Without it, spirit is impersonal and cosmic in its qualities.

The etheric body forms in and around the physical embryo during gestation. It acts as the interconnection between spirit/astral and the physical body. It also sustains life within the physical body. Without it, the physical body would be a corpse.

The first death is what we know as death. The physical body ceases to function. The etheric + astral + spirit leave the physical via an OBE/NDE. The mind is generally still intact and localized within space and time due to the etheric body synchronizing the spiritual with the physical realm.

But once the etheric body disintegrates or is left behind, which on average occurs within 3-7 days (unless psychic vampirism or esoteric meditation practices sustain its form), the astral + spirit then move on into whatever part of the dreamlike astral plane it resonates with.

The astral is what many call the afterlife but it's only the staging area. Residual self-image continues to exist there, so people hang out in the astral doing whatever's in their nature to do.

Eventually even the astral body is left behind, which completes the second death. The costume is stowed back in the cosmic closet, so to speak.

The impersonal godspark or spirit moves up into the true afterlife where it communes with cosmic spiritual intelligences and has a timeless view of its existence.

Then depending on its level of development, it either chooses or is forced to come back via reincarnation. The astral forms around it while the etheric forms around the embryo, and the two interlock more and more frequently as birth approaches. Then it's another trip around the rollercoaster of life.

Variations of the above is what you'll find in all the ancient mystery school traditions, Theosophy, Anthroposophy, afterlife and reincarnation studies, and what good mediums pick up on.

It's a generic template and there are many aberrant exceptions to it, like souls that maintain their form after death and acquire the power to consciously manifest a new body without reincarnating.

https://media.gab.com/system/media_attac...5d9083.png

Comments

V for Victory
@guanajo
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@montalk And then think about the idea that after all is said and done, we are all energy going from one form to another as we learn and, hopefully, evolve spiritually. If we consider the “densities” concept where eventually we reach 7th density, which is complete union with all, we reach 7th then we apparently go back to the beginning and start all over again. Or, depending on who you ask, we go back to density 1 but at a higher octave like the keys of a piano.

I find very interesting and mind blowing to think about the concept that we are all like water. There can be drops of water that are temporarily separated from the larger body of water but they are still water. How do you distinguish one drop of water from another once you put them back into the lake? It makes you wonder about the illusion of separation or the illusion of ”I”. For all intents and purposes, “I” might literally be a different iteration of you, and my neighbor, and of a Grey in some underground base, etc. I just find it funny when people say “be yourself”. Yeah, which one?

WinterGreen999
@WinterGreen999
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@montalk Forces? what would exactly force you to reincarnate if you're in such a god-like state of awareness at that point? I thought freewill was the number one rule in the cosmos or something along those lines. Are there beings 'stronger' than you in that state? if that state can even be called 'you' anymore. I still fail to see how any of the experiences you as an individual go through throughout the reincarnations even matter if the end result of each of them is a clean-slate, wiped, 'impersonal' force of energy that everything in the cosmos has...and yet somehow, paradoxically, it's still 'you'? Even though anything that could be measured as 'you' rotted away in the previous etheric/astral forms? I don't understand. How do you 'learn' when there is not even no memory, but the entire existence itself was basically destroyed altogether? Hell, what's there to 'learn' even in such a state? you're effectively pure boundless awareness at that point apparently. What could there be for you to 'learn' that you literally can't just tap into the akasha for right there on the spot and figure it all out way more intensely than you ever could here? I'm drawing serious blanks with how any of this makes sense. Especially in regards to some entities/souls being able to generate bodies for themselves upon death if they're 'psychically strong enough'. So I'm guessing an ordinary schmuck wouldn't be able to do that. You'd have to be Christ-tier level of 'evolved' to pull something like that off I'm guessing. Too many questions and no real answers in my opinion....I doubt there's really any 'lesson' or endgame to any of it. It's either the lifespark wanting to live forever in anyway it can, donning different egos if it has to, or all of this really is some kind of trap and it's all just lies and nothing more.

Dauphin_
@Dauphin_
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My friend you rail against metaphysical laws which is silly. Resonance is a law like gravity or breathing. It is a comfort and an instruction that we have Law. Watch where particles of different mass mindlessly go and settle to in a cymatics demonstration. How much faster the soul will go to its own place when not encumbered by heavy mass. What kind of dreams do you have?

It's purely mechanical and brought you to where you are today, with the love and the harshness of a Mother until you get tired of being an animal in a human suit and go "Wait a minute! This is awful!"

We are all HINOs - "humans in name only". That is what my eyes tell me. I trust my own eyes. The New Age obviously sold everyone a bill of goods in saying everyone's ok in love and light, hence some of this confusion.

Who you really are while alone is what brings you into proximity with your experiences including the afterlife and in dreams and constitutes what little of the soul we have. One can want and yearn and pine all day in exasperated shadowy isolated diabolical futility but that is as far as the dialectical intellect can go. It is never certain. What is required is LIGHT.

Who you really are is what you are in private, alone. Who you really are is what spills out of you when you are jostled by life. Who you really are is what you do instinctually, habitually, automatically and is your true contents. We are barely conscious of our motives and reasons for doing anything but that is the stuff of soul.

The soul is never grown nor gifted, it is FORGED by willpower in dying to vice, birthing virtue, sacrifice for others and meriting higher Graces. It is forged with the human generative energies, the same thing that creates physical children can be used to create indestructibility on the astral and etheric levels too. This has been known for millenia, hinted at everywhere in esoterica and religion without the key really being given except in modern times or to sincere and worthy disciples (I say this because you posted to Tom's Gab). It takes "40 days and 40 nights", meaning it doesn't get built in a day but is built through the effort of the hero.

We've obviously been brought this far mechanically by Nature and are awake to this situation. We are *aware* now and what do we see? We have choices, awareness, willpower, and an assistive human energetic system that this connects to. What do we see inside? Animals, ugliness, inner demons, clever egos, shadowy uncertain darkness... time for a little war eh?

The power of holding the question resonates with the answer in the proximate future. Reverence and helpless surrender to the higher world of spirit and benevolent cosmic beings is the only real place one has here. This is because the world of spirit exclusively starts one on the special paths, not the other way around.

Diana
@ursanova
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I don't know. When I was using spiritual approach to "get out of the Matrix", I was running round in circles. Turns out the answer was staring me right in the face all along - the four elements of astrology, four suits of tarot... I used to think that the spirit is what is eternal, and a way out of this quagmire. But I realised that those old systems describe THIS world - the materium, the embodiment, the simulation, whatever, complete with all its non-physical planes.
Spirit [fire] is just a lighter, less dense "body". Then comes mental layer [air] (roughly astral?), then emotional [water] (~ etheric?), and lastly the most dense and heavy physical body [earth]. This means that spirit and body are the same (which is great to me). In most people all those layers are out of whack, and we don't connect to the truth of us.

So the majority of each one of us is actually outside it. And made of something extraordinary, beyond mental comprehension, like love. And we have our heads stuck in here, seeing only this minute part of reality (5 or 10% of our brain being used?), identifying ourselves with our incarnations. The constant recycling of those layers through the trap of reincarnation... This would also explain religions and their focus on spiritual world - no problem, just a different way of control. It is still on the same level, from which solutions don't come. As a child I would go inside a wicker basket with a handle, and try to lift myself up. It's that kind of situation in my view.

And these days I also think that this means that Matrix is inside us, not around us - so we have nowhere to escape from. We just need to dismantle the programming that disconnects us. But that's just how I see it, just sharing it as my two cents, not trying to preach it. Everyone has their own best understanding that helps them navigate this world.

WinterGreen999
@WinterGreen999
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@ursanova I'm not quite sure I understand what you're saying. Yes, the elements that compose the world are also a part of the 'spiritual' underpinning of things. after all, 'matter' is energy. all of this is energy. everything and anything. But how does that exactly explain anything else? the mechanics of reincarnation, the traps, etc? The way I see it reality or at least this earth is nothing more than a fucked up star trek episode and nothing more. Probably some evolved creatures with advanced technology we consider 'magic' or 'spirituality' are using as both a farm and a genetic experiment and nothing more. As dark as that sounds it makes the most sense to me. All of this talk about 'needing to learn lessons' and all that sh*t in a universe that's ultimately completely chaotic is kinda absurd. And if there is some form of intelligent, egoic, grand-designer, then it's definitely all the more horrifying because that basically means some god-like alien is dictating the lives and actions of absolutely everyone and everything in existence, and you ultimately have no power and no agency whatsoever. People really get caught up in this feel good crap to realize that any amount of information and communication we have about this topic b a r e l y scratches the tippity top of the surface of how incomprehensible this stuff is. Ultimately, who tf knows. The government probably does, but they're not telling anytime soon. Nothing truthful anyway.

WinterGreen999
@WinterGreen999
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@montalk The funny part is that if there's nothing 'forcing' you to reincarnate at that level, 'deciding' to do so is equally nonsensical sounding since only a being with an ego can make a decision....And yet, wasn't the ego and all the astral/etheric components and everything that makes you an individual destroyed before reaching that point of 'pure' awareness?...So how can there be a choice to reincarnate, and how can one be forced into doing so as well? since that implies another ego/consciousness made you do something against your will, which violates both that supposed rule of cosmic law and violates the principle that in order to reach that state you have to have cast away your ego and astral/etheric attachments...and yet, that possible entity that forced you to do so, didn't? It got to keep its sense of self and you had to be an amnesic toddler again in god knows what situation? This idea is scarier than any hell in my honest opinion. But none of it makes sense to me. There are much, much, more inconsistencies I could find with this idea but these are a few glaringly obvious ones I could immediately notice.

Montalk
@montalk
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@WinterGreen999 The choice is more about the timing and manner of insertion back into physicality. If the consciousness is advanced enough, it will have the knowledge, wisdom, and capacity to do this on its own.

To clarify, consciousness may no longer have a human personality at that point, but it's still an individual, and as such if you count 'individualized consciousness' as ego then yes it has an ego.

But if by ego you mean 'socially programmed human self-image' then no it doesn't have an ego. The latter actually doesn't have freewill on its own, and it only acts with freewill to the degree that spirit consciousness identifies with it and wears it like a mask, conforming its own genuine freewill into the lower ego's programming.

If the consciousness isn't advanced enough, then by sheer weakness and lack of wisdom it would be capable of being fooled by the Archons (if you believe that possibility) into reincarnating again, or else actually forced back by such beings similar to how plants in a nursery are forced into a new pot because in being plants they can't move or resist on their own.

Alternatively, with the nursery example, it's possible that the beings doing that aren't evil Archons but higher benevolent "plant-workers" looking out for your best interest and finding you a good fit for what you need to grow. That would only happen if you lack the foresight/wisdom to fully determinine your own destiny.

The debate remains about whether it's all a sham, or whether there's a positive purpose to coming here. But either way, considering how much we suck at being perfect as humans, evidently we're not as strong and advanced as we like to think, which is why I find it reasonable that there are higher beings managing and influencing our incarnational cycles.

WinterGreen999
@WinterGreen999
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@montalk So in this case, 'advanced' enough would genuinely have to be something akin to Christ-like levels of development like i used in the previous example right? Because at the levels you're describing, I genuinely doubt anyone I've ever met in life or hell most people in esoteric stories that were said to be extremely powerful/involved like Crowley would even be able to be counted as 'Advanced' in any capacity. I have no scale/metric to measure what's meant by 'advanced' here, which is what's making it difficult for me to figure this portion of the principle out. And in regards to the whole archon thing, well, call me sane, but I find it hard to understand how some people could 'benefit' from some of the things they went through. Most people end up irreparably broken unless they were fortunate enough to receive genuine help catered specifically to their circumstances and not some blanket advice some cheap therapist offers them. And as a result, there's no way to determine who/what gets involved with the archons or the 'angels' or whatever. I remember your response to my PM I sent a while ago, some are 'soulless', some made deals with dark forces and are now paying the price, etc. It makes sense to some extent, but not to other extents. Idk. I'm always thinking about this, cross referencing, and so on. It's definitely hard to do. But all I do know is I'm not one to blindly trust any set process and especially any entity that's capable of lying. Which anything with an ego, is capable of lol.

WinterGreen999
@WinterGreen999
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@montalk I also have trouble understanding what's meant by 'individualized consciousness'. we know that ego is generated by circumstances and the body and so on, but with those 2 things gone, what exactly 'is' what's left? how is it an 'individual' in any capacity? I guess what I'm saying is I'm having a hard time imagining what this...thing? is. there's no way to describe it as being 'you' if everything we call 'us/you' is a part of the false self so...maybe we just can't define it as we are now? it's too unknowable to our egoic selves? Or am I missing something? It's hard to imagine something being you while not being you at all because all 'you' were was the egoic stuff.

quinta_essentia
@quinta_essentia
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@montalk Yes. I've been looking into this for the better part of a year. It is interesting how many cultures and religions / beliefs seem to revolve around this consensus. "Spiritual Man" by Watchmen Nee is a great book that looks at this specifically. He comes from a "old school" Christian perspective (which is better than modern imo) and is one of the only Christian writers that I've read who really seemed to grasp and convey these concepts outside of all the dogma most have come to rely on in modern "comfort churches". Worth a read if one comes from that background and wants an intro to this subject!

Montalk
@montalk
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@quinta_essentia My mom was really into Watchman Nee. I haven't read him yet but thanks for mentioning him.

@guanajo Yes, I completely agree. It's interesting that every situation calls for us to carefully reflect, turn within, think, and intuit. It's not "allowed" to have a simple mechanical formula that lets us do the right thing mindlessly. So in a way through constant instability and challenge, we're being trained to use our freewill and employ balance + discernment + heart. Rest is temporary. It's similar to a workout program with progressive resistance and changing things up so that the muscles can't adapt to any one thing and stop growing.
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#2
Diana
@ursanova
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@WinterGreen999
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I'm not sure (yet) about "the mechanics" of it. What I'm saying is that I think that even the spirit is in that cycle - all the layers of matter, from the lightest to the densest; AND that we also exist outside of that cycle. I think (this is today, it might change with new information/understanding) that our true nature is outside of this realm completely, but this world used to be our playground, until some other force hijacked it, most likely through seduction and suggestion. There are probably many players involved now, not just one, and the history is long, and different to anything we've been told.

I imagine that progressively the bodies have been tampered with, to block our access to the full awareness of who we are, but this also happens "naturally" when we don't act in alignment with truth and integrity. So it became a perpetuum mobile of accumulating programs, however... Such is the strength of our true substance (love perhaps?), that despite the millennia of slavery, many are truly shaking it off, and there is indeed a massive change in frequency happening. This does not mean that everyone does that! Many are too hooked into their own programs, the old system and the falsity. But just looking at what we survive today (and grow despite of), the onslaught of poison from all sides and in all forms - I think this is a testament to our hidden power.

And why is EVERYTHING in this world designed to make people think, since childhood, that they are nothing, zero, stupid, worthless, powerless? How does a human live, when he knows he is free, powerful, and fear does not rule him? Imagine it happening on a large scale... this world would then be a completely different place.

As to "needing lessons" - I don't subscribe to this at all. A tree doesn't need to learn how to be a tree. A duck doesn't need to learn to be a duck. Then why would we? What if it's that other "force" that at its core is so ignorant, it needs to try and understand how this magical realm works, and it works through our hijacked minds that became blocked and "stupidified"? Trying to learn things using the intellect only can at best make us run in circles, at worst go insane. Isn't it true that the deepest understanding comes through insight, like a sudden spark, and not through logical reasoning? I'm saying this as someone who relied only on intellect for most of my life. When I relaxed into "not knowing", quite rapidly I started understanding more, and most importantly I started seeing my own immediate world clearer (and this is where I should start - first clean up my own mess, then look further out).

Diana
@ursanova
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@WinterGreen999
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Also, if we didn't have these patterns running us and making us cause harm, then we wouldn't need to have "lessons" to correct our wrongs. Someone who truly and fully met himself in the depth of his being, wouldn't be able to harm himself or another. It's not possible. Someone who became hijacked and acted from those foreign impulses, "needs" correction you could say - but it is a neverending cycle. I don't see how it can be fixed - only dropped, or deleted. Like rogue software, malware.

I also don't buy into the grand designer/creator person thing. For starters, I had done that already, having grown up Catholic, and I have intimate knowledge of the fruits of that approach (although I am aware that it does wonders for some - to each his own). It could be that that other force took the beauty of our true substance and made a caricature of it, and after we'd already been trapped in these disconnected, manipulated bodies, presented it to us as "God" - something EXTERNAL to long for, something we don't already have or are, with added controlling bonuses of fear of punishment, original sin etc etc. Here also shows the dualistic nature - good must go with the bad - and I also think that this hijacking of the simulation made it so. The true, natural way to be here would transcend duality.

All this worldly bullshit and slavery is synthetic, and it even feels like a computer program running. We don't have so much of this kind of "synthetic" feeling when we are in a forest, do we? So I think nature carries A LOT of our true substance. And I agree as to the very advanced technology - some crap is definitely being beamed into our minds/bodies 24/7. There is a hidden presence here, and the longer humans don't realise it, the longer it will take us to get out of this mess.

Montalk
@montalk
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@WinterGreen999 Spiritual advancement is more about how "together" you are consciously, how connected you are with divinity, how much wisdom you have accumulated, and how much you have overcome your weaknesses, vices, and attachments to illusion and self-deception.

That's not necessarily the same thing as occult power, which can be had without spiritual advancement, Crowley being an example.

You can be spiritually advanced in life and thereby have more control over your incarnation after death, without having much occult power. But typically beyond a certain level of spiritual advancement it's natural that occult powers develop because all the chakras are balanced and the heart is wide open so there's a lot of energy coming in and pouring out which triggers occult abilities. Saints who develop an aura, are able to heal people, or spontaneously levitate are examples of that.

Conversely, you can be spiritually retarded but use sheer willpower and bargains made with dark entities to power up your lower chakras and thereby gain occult powers. That leads to becoming a black magician of sorts. I think these types don't go into the higher afterlife realm, but stay within the lower astral after death and maybe jump into an empty (spiritless) embryo as a hijacker. Or they remain there as demons feeding off our lifeforce energy.

Point being, I think "advanced enough to choose your incarnations" doesn't take that much. You just have to not be a low consciousness, mindless, spiritually lost, barely sentient human being.

You have to have some experience under your belt, an ability for introspection, and care about your spiritual wellbeing. Ideally your consciousness would be "together" enough that whether drunk or dreaming you maintain lucidity. That way you can't get lost in a trance or reverie after death and be led into stupid decisions as you currently are in dreams when not lucid.

I mean if you're someone who tries to learn from life and be proactive in your growth, that's probably a reflection of your proactiveness in the afterlife. It's like a student getting to do independent study. The qualifications for that are analogous.

Christ-like advancement is only needed if you also want to transcend physicality itself like some "OBE" Wan Kenobe that can pop in and out of physicality at will.

That said, people generally only have each other to compare themselves to. So if humanity is below average in the grand scheme of things, the better among them might think, "Hey I'm pretty advanced compared to everyone I know, so why do I keep reincarnating?" Well maybe it's because they have no idea how far up the scale goes and how they still have a ways to go.

On the flip side, there supposedly are Archonic beings who try to make you feel worse about yourself than you actually are. Maybe you're slightly below average but they make you feel like utter sh*t and wrongly convince you to take on extra karmic load to make up for it.

Montalk
@montalk
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@WinterGreen999 Sentience doesn't depend on social or biological programming.

You can pay attention to your inner silent witness right now, and even in the midst or stress or emotional turmoil notice that it's there, separate from what's happening in the body and human brain, separate from human thoughts, just calmly and neutrally watching in the background as the core perceiver. So much of Eastern meditation practices revolve around shifting into that perspective and getting out of the lower mind.

So it's independent of the false social/biological self which is what most people mean by ego. It's just pure awareness with the ability to be aware of its own existence.

That self-aware witness is a glimpse of your individualized consciousness. It's individualized because when you're in that mode, it's not like you're in someone else's consciousness able to experience their life and control them. No, it's localized to you.

When this sentience puts on the mask of social identity, political preferences, material goals, subconscious complexes, human personality, etc. then it gets lost in that character and you get a regular human. When that human dies and those costume pieces fall away, self-aware sentience remains. That's the whole point of metaphysical teachings, that you are not your body or your lower ego, but are something higher. But that higher thing isn't the absolute infinite Creator at One with everything. It's just your higher self, a higher less limited and purer version of you.

Of course, if in that state you have expanded perception (like of all time points simultaneously) and memories (like of past lives) then you would indeed have a higher kind of ego as well but one formed from superior information compared to the comparatively trivial things we humans on the ground base our personality on.

WinterGreen999
@WinterGreen999
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@montalk I see. Yeah, this makes sense I'd say.

13laddyboy13
@13laddyboy13
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@montalk

A very cogent observation and synopsis.

From my own observations and experience, there is a risk in creating a template that illustrates "levels" of existence.

Since we are conversing about these topics in the "living" existence, there are really no other degrees of existence beyond what we can perceive as the living beings we are. Of course, what each individual is able to perceive is most definitely varied.

In Daoism there is a practice of cultivating what is known as "xing" and "ming". Xing loosely translated means "nature", as in fundamental nature of one's reality and eventually the fundamental nature of reality beyond the filters one perceives reality through. Ming is loosely translated as "life" or basically the "stuff" that is responsible for literally birthing one's life into being.

The beauty of this process is that the "xing" needs "ming" for its existence and the "ming" needs "xing". It is possible to pursue one or the other, but it will limit the overall development of one's awareness as a being that is suspended between the Earthly realm and the "Heavenly" realm; an awareness that is said to be taken beyond "death". So, it is effectively a process of actualizing oneself within our inherently "dualistic" paradigm to cultivate a "potential" that transcends just the "physical" reality, but also "teaches" someone along the way. (Robert Monroe talks about attaining "escape velocity" which to me is a way of describing it as in the "gravity" of this realm is not strong enough to contain one's being-ness once a certain degree of awareness has been cultivated in the embodied state)

There are a lot of similar processes described in various traditions, but rarely do I find that people are able to put such a practice into action. (That is utilizing 'time' to cultivate oneself)

Since you have suggested John Baines "The Stellar Man" throughout your writings I will reference the part where he speaks about coming into alignment and actualizing oneself during one's life and how this is really the ONLY valuable experience. Forgive me for not having the pages for reference as I loaned my copy out and never got it back.

This to me is the "aligning" of the various lenses of perception in a way that completely actualized and validates ones entire being. This is the process of "cooking the alchemical medicine" that is often referenced in cryptic texts.

Lastly, I definitely agree that there are a lot of deviated people who can do "occult" things. It is a shame, but these people are living examples of how power can corrupt.

Thank you for sharing your viewpoints.
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