if you help others for free, is it somehow good for you?

[BlueMoon]

Agree Q3......Very well said....icon_2thumbs

[Richard]

[user=897]BlueMoon[/user] wrote:

While the above happened it is not the only outcome of your website. So many participate, made frienships, have been helped, enjoy discussing many topics that the average person pays no attention to, provided a place for people of like minds to come together and discuss things. That , Richard , is a good thing. Many are grateful to you so it was a good outcome. Karmicly, It was never meant for SS. It was meant for the members over the years. SS is behind most of us. We come here to enjoy the website you created.. Sometimes we do the right thing for the wrong reason. I for one, believe good things come out of good deeds.

This is true. The forum ended up becoming something better than the original intention. Instead of promoting a couple of con artists it is exposing them and the members here are sharing info with other members for free instead of them paying con artists thousands of dollars for worthless info.

[xanthas]

it is only when you gain nothing- not thanks, not recognition, not recompense in any form, that a deed may be considered "good", or truly altruistic. then, you pay your down your karma 7x over and will be rewarded by spirit.

Hmmm... I don't know whether one ought to refer to something as 'gaining nothing'... It's often more subtle than 'in-your-face' "gain" or "loss"... However which way we may perceive something as 'gain' or 'loss' it is our perception that can help us shift what we consider "gaining" or 'losing' ...

Also, I feel that the concept of 'paying' for our karma 7x times over has shifted to a more 'immediate' "impact" - given that time has been speeding up considerably over the last few decades - never mind that 'time' is an illusion, too... The universe - 'reality' is "plastic" - meaning - it adapts instantaneously as we change our 'thought focus'- attitude, feeling, emotional resonance and response - reflecting our experience on the material (outward) level.

As within so without.

If at all,  we are becoming more aware of the 'time-space-continuum' being much more malleable. What I mean by this is that it is us who are 'catching' on to the fact that time doesn't exist - or, that what we "create" (karma), has a much more immediate "effect" (consequence) that can either be considered 'altruistic', 'negative'/positive', "evil" or "constructive" and life-affirming...

These adjectives are all 'labels' to try and help us ascribe 'some'-thing (action) and  "understand" what we are 'doing' - whether consciously and deliberately or unaware (thus creating a lot of unpleasant 'consequences - or, 'karma').

Altruism seems to be a limited way of 'acting' in a certain fashion that has moved beyond 'expectation' (i.e., 'reward', brownie points, 'applause', "ego boosting", etc.). When we detach from our 'good' "deeds" and just do it for the sake of doing 'some'-thing, it changes and has no longer this emotional 'link' (weight) that feeds either self-satisfaction (being pleased with oneself for having been such a good little trooper) or disappointment (i.e., "I didn't get as much out of this as I'd hoped for").

Richard's website has changed for the better (;)), if it hadn't I wouldn't have returned here. So, as we evolve, our 'work' (actions as a result of our becoming more aware and conscious of ourselves) changes and reflects that.

Altruism than also needn't be 'viewed' as "paying" for our karma 7x times over because we no longer create that reality and we can just 'do' "good" without any attachments whatsoever because we just do it out of our deepest inner most centre - soul-connected, from the heart and from that centre of the heart chakra there is no need for 'reward'.

When you love yourself you don't come with the baggage or destructive attachments to your actions.

The action in itself is the reward because it has a different vibration.:)

[warbler]

Am very much enjoying this topic/thread. xanthas, enjoyed reading your take on things.
 
About the idea of helping others, I not sure I know how to define that. For example, I volunteer for hospice. One day spouse and I got to talking about my work and he said, "When you see your hospice buddy, Mike, I always love those days! You come home from your visit and you are glowing, every single time, like there is something about being with him that fills you up."
 
Well, I shared that with Mike and the next thing that came out of my mouth surprised us both. I said, "So, the question is ... who is helping whom? I'm kind of thinking it's YOU who is helping me!" Both Mike and I laughed! Here I am visiting this old guy, due to die at any time, and even though he has passed on now, I still think I went to help Mike and got something else instead. 
 
What if it's impossible to help others without also helping yourself? 
 
That makes sense, even when one considers the "no good deed goes unpunished" phenomenon. If a person believes he/she is helping but the reality is that he/she is being used, there isn't going to be a happy exchange of energies. So, how do we know if we are helping others or being used? I don't have an answer for that but do have another example. 
 
Another endeavor of mine is volunteering for adult literacy. My last student was 32, read at second grade level, had no history of life skills that would support such things as doing homework, showing up on time, or canceling with adequate notice. Although we had some success, after six months of working with him I began to notice that I felt used ... and THAT was not good for me. So, the literacy agency gave me another student and things are looking much better.  : )
 
Haha, this sounds clear as mud. Just ramblings on a hot afternoon in July.

[xanthas]

Hello Warbler,
Sorry for only getting back to you now... I like taking my time these days before 'jumping' in nilly willy...given that this needs a more...differentiated and nuanced reply than a mere 'xyz' answer.

I volunteer for hospice. One day spouse and I got to talking about my work and he said, "When you see your hospice buddy, Mike, I always love those days! You come home from your visit and you are glowing, every single time, like there is something about being with him that fills you up."
 
Well, I shared that with Mike and the next thing that came out of my mouth surprised us both. I said, "So, the question is ... who is helping whom? I'm kind of thinking it's YOU who is helping me!" Both Mike and I laughed! Here I am visiting this old guy, due to die at any time, and even though he has passed on now, I still think I went to help Mike and got something else instead.

It's interesting you mention that you work in a hospice. Working with people that are about to depart from their physical form, is an entirely different process from the 'normal' experience of "helping" someone out of a 'specific' (sometimes unconscious) agenda..., the reason being is, that dying and the process before going over to a different plane of existence cannot and should not be compared with any other voluntary kind of work.

When you are consciously - and the emphasis here is on preparation; knowing your time has elapsed - moving toward this stage, one of the biggest revelations is, that the ultimate letting go is the inevitability of death and dying - leaving the physical to continue existing on the spiritual plane.

Most of the time, the human 'breed' is so attached to the physical form that it struggles to cope with the process of leaving - not just the body, but the family, loved ones, friends, one's "life". The sadness as well as the awareness of the frailty of life... no matter how old the dying individual is (controversial though she was, Elisabeth Kübler-Ross, a Swiss psychiatrist, became a world reknowned authority on working with terminally ill children as well as older dying patients) make one become much more forgiving, open, and willing to let one's true Self shine through... In other words, the real essence of that person is finally coming to the fore because there is no longer a need to 'hide' behind some mask or facade because it costs - ironically - too much effort and energy that are, literally as well as metaphorically - a waste of time...

Thus, the true core of that person shares itself without a hidden agenda, without a need to 'prove' anything because it is no longer necessary... When an individual can prepare for their passing, it happens with much more softness, and a willingness to forgive. Not just those they feel might have wronged them, but moreover because they can recognise and acknowledge within their deepest inner Selves, their own part in having created the situation... It isn't always necessarily that obvious - even to the one who is passing but certainly their energy changes, their vibration adapts and because the Soul knows... (Cats are known to have 'come' to those that are about to die...they can pick up the vibrationary changes, the energy slowing down.)

And that in itself allows for a completely different exchange with those around them - being able to truly give without expectation of anything in 'return' because they know it is no longer necessary... It's almost literally irrelevant...for the only thing that does matter is to pass over in peace...be resolved with one's life, how and what one has done while acknowledging one's mistakes and errors, one's own part in the whole scheme of things...no longer prepared to blame (for that is so convenient ... it keeps us from looking at ourselves...) but instead, to let it go and be 'as light as a feather'.

The freedom from attachment that comes with this colours everything they say and how they interact with those around them... The deepest most profound truth is that learning how to die teaches you how to live...the problem is, we go about it backwards... Those that have come back from these experiences change their life when it truly has gone beyond the intellectual or physical, beyond that which no language can explain.

The Soul does not 'speak' "English", Spanish, German, Korean, Urdu, or Suaheli.icon_headstand

What you feel as 'receiving' something bigger in "return" is merely the Soul shining forth in its vibration of beauty, purity and unconditionality of what and who we truly are but which we forget because of 'tick tock' (every day hum drum), our conditioning, the wars we pick with ourselves, our own inner verbal diarrhea we unleash on ourselves, driving us crazyicon_datzicon_crazy. As the saying goes: We all are our own worst enemies, never mind those standing on the sidelines, happy to 'help us' hurt ourselves even more and make a nice profit off of it....

It's only when we are aware that 'time is running out' that we begin to go inwards, reflect and "return" to our 'Selves' - sometimes with the metaphorical gun to our head (cancer or another terminally ill person around us, or a similar tragedy). I like a lot what Alex Collier says:

"The only currency we have is time."

We can always make another buck, quid or Z€(u)ro or whatever other fiat currency one uses. But we can't ever retrieve time and minutes, moments that we have lost - our childhood, our first rush of falling in love...and so forth.

As to that other bloke, and you teaching him how to read, it sounds like a classic case of him sucking off your energy... In this case, love of Self - when you are truly tuned into your own needs as well as how you define your own boundaries and know when they are being overstepped or violated, you know when to retrieve and walk away from an abusive situation.

Better yet, when you're totally in tune with that, you don't get into these situations in the first place and thus, abuse of your goodwill has no room to unfold.

We can always give freely to those who will appreciate the gesture for what it is - that is real karma in action with immediate effect!icon_angel

[color="#0055aa"]Little addendum:[/color] Shamanism is one of the indigenous teachings that can 'show' one how to die but it is not everybody's path or avenue.

[William]

This is a great thread....

Sometimes even if our intention is good, helping others could change things for the worse. Its a play by play moment when you choose to help someone. You could change their path for the worse. You could be taking away a lesson only they need to learn....

This is a tough question. Follow your heart. Believe your intention is the best course of action. Pray for guidance. Learn from mistakes...

peace

[BlueMoon]

WOW Xanthas. You have managed to find words to explain a very complicated feeling involving energy, frequency, and essence. I thank you for writing it. I have attempted to explain some of those feelings but as I said it is very difficult to put into words.

Those feelings and behavour do in fact occur in those that survive, but most don't realize what is happening. They feel and act different and are peaceful but not exactly sure why.

[BlueMoon]

William... good point. I try never to get into another's path no matter how tempting. I agree you may be taking away a lesson they need to learn.

I'm not saying one should never help. I find that when an offer to help is made, if the person is not ready they know and they do not accept it. Then you know not to push it. They are not done with their lesson.

When they are ready both of you will know.

[xanthas]

William wrote:

Sometimes even if our intention is good, helping others could change things for the worse. Its a play by play moment when you choose to help someone.

I agree... which is why I genuinely feel that one can do this only when one is completely free from the action - as in - no emotional attachments because, the less energy attachments around it, the less damage it can do - to yourself as well as the one who the help is directed towards.

Often, even so-called 'good' intentions can turn hairy because one is not "the one receiving" the effect (outcome/result) of the one sending out the 'energy of intention'. 'Humanitarian aid' certainly falls into that category...

You could change their path for the worse. You could be taking away a lesson only they need to learn....

...and thus, 'hampering' their process or evolution or taking them down the wrong path...

"This is a tough question. Follow your heart. Believe your intention is the best course of action. Pray for guidance. Learn from mistakes..."

...and...most importantly, put yourself in someone else's shoes...let go...of things having to be 'just so'...a certain way or the 'highway'...;)

I feel the biggest issue with this is that we can rarely ascertain that we know what's truly appropriate in offering someone our 'help'... Certainly, I have come to the point where I initiate the offer (i.e., with a phone call), but I don't "push" it on them... It is up to the other person to accept it and if not, I leave it be... That's where I have come to, where I respect somebody else's free will and also make sure I don't let myself be misled to not feel 'appreciated'...

Detachment greatly helps in maintaining perspective.

[warbler]

Wow, xanthas, lovely reply! I enjoyed reading it. Also enjoyed seeing new ways of looking. For example, you wrote: “Working with people that are about to depart from their physical form, is an entirely different process [/i][/b]from the 'normal' experience of "helping" someone out of a 'specific' (sometimes unconscious) agenda..., the reason being is, that dying and the process before going over to a different plane of existence cannot and should not be compared with any other voluntary kind of work”...

When I read that, I was surprised because I would be more likely to say “all volunteering is the same[/b] process, but there are differences in details.” However, I think that statement reflects personal[/i] volunteer experiences and not the view of persons on the receiving end of my efforts.

Still, I enjoyed your view because even though I still see volunteer work as very much the same (and I’ll get to the ‘whys’ of that in a minute) I can also see that it might be prudent to refrain from offering that opinion to those who have recently lost a loved one, gone through the dying and hospice experiences which you so poignantly and eloquently described! It’s a perspective I was missing!

Now, how can I say that all volunteer work is the same? For me, volunteering is the giving away of one’s time, energy and/or resources. But, it is much more than that because, at the deepest level, helping others is a sharing of soul/spirit, regardless of whether or not a person is aware of that deeper sharing. This means that helping people learn to read, cleaning a park, visiting a person in hospice, or even baking for a bake sale are activities that appear different, and in the matter of specifics they ARE different, but the thing that lies behind[/i] them is the same. And what is that thing? I think it could be called many things but the one that seems to fit the most is the energy of soul/spirit, and for me, that is love. My reading students get this energy, this caring. They may not think that teaching them to read has anything to do with love, but for me, it does. Even if I’m baking cookies for the bake sale and no one thinks that is about love, I believe it is, and as you so nicely put it ... “the Soul knows.”

The only differences I see with hospice and other volunteer work is intensity and maybe truth. With hospice, both the volunteer and the ‘client’ know and agree that caring is first and all the specifics (straightening up their closets, helping them sort through paper-work, reading their mail, bringing home-made soup and rolls) become the things in the background. With most other volunteer work, it’s backwards. For example, the specific nature of literacy is learning to read and I play along with that but for me, learning to read is not the main thing happening. Caring is the main thing, always. [Of course, I could be entirely wrong with how I see all of this, but for now ... it’s my experience.] : )

As for all the stages a person goes through when they are dying? I’ve only seen pieces of what you described. That doesn’t mean the people I see aren’t[/i] going through those changes, but I’d venture to guess they go through a lot of those changes with family, friends and/or other members of the hospice team, i.e. doctor, nurse, social worker, psychologist, chaplain, aides and so forth. Mostly what I experience with hospice folks is a desire to savor and love the people, activities and life around them.

And, a curious thought arose when I read your idea about shamans and dying because one of the things literacy work helps people do is “die to their ideas.” I’m talking about limiting ideas people have of themselves, of their abilities, judgments about why they didn’t learn to read, etc. Tutors help students die to the reality of not being able to read and birth them into a new reality where they CAN read. Of course, this is not the magnitude of dying that happens in hospice work, but it is a death nonetheless and perhaps these little ‘deaths’ are very helpful when it comes to the ultimate death, the shedding of our false selves and the welcoming of what is true and real.

So, to return to the original question of this thread ... I don’t think we can help others without being helped in return. Even the literacy student who was sucking my energy helped me in return: I taught him to read a bit and he taught me to remember to ask for what I want: students who care and want to learn! : )